I presume you have it or heard it Andy. It's easy talking then because you then have made an opinion of the song. Other fans would love the get such an oppertunity.A_MichaelUK wrote:From pitkin88:
"Hidden Persuaders - "very rough demo" from Dada sessions I'd like to hear this rough or not."
You wouldn't say that if you actually had.
Dada-promos??
Moderators: Devon, Gorehound, Si, SickThings, Shoesalesman
Re: Dada-promos??
-
A_MichaelUK
- Dada God
- Posts: 5383
- Joined: Thu Nov 16, 2006 12:35 pm
Re: Dada-promos??
From mestreetch:
"Other fans would love the get such an oppertunity."
I don't disagree but in most cases, there is a good reason why something is not released.
"Other fans would love the get such an oppertunity."
I don't disagree but in most cases, there is a good reason why something is not released.
Re: Dada-promos??
I would have asked him about it but he has a hard time remembering this stuff. If the song is sub par I would still be interested to hear the lyrics to see if it was something that might have fit in with the album.
-
mr.barlow
Re: Dada-promos??
This is pure speculation on my part but I'll have a little fun with this.
If the title "Hidden Persuaders" was taken from a book about advertising than it would have to do with the subliminal.
If it's taken at face value is could be about people behind the scenes who coax you into doing something.
Taking into context what Alice was going through at the time both personally and professionally, namely the acrimonious end with WB, both meanings could be applied.
There was no secret that Alice, Shep and everyone involved wanted a kiss-off song to WB on the album. It ended up being "Enough's Enough" in a veiled way. Former Lee Warmer was orginally titled "Formerly Warner" and I think was originally written as the kiss-off song but grew into the classic that it became.
If I were to fathom a guess, and keeping the concept of Dada in mind, it could have been a deliberate combination of a lot of things--a complete mix-up--which dealt with people or things both mentally or physically, that goad you into doing something that you may not want to do.
What I would like to know was this given any type of studio produced demo and was it ever considered for the album or were it's elements taken and blended into other songs or if it grew into another song--say like Formerly Warner became Formerly Warmer?
If the title "Hidden Persuaders" was taken from a book about advertising than it would have to do with the subliminal.
If it's taken at face value is could be about people behind the scenes who coax you into doing something.
Taking into context what Alice was going through at the time both personally and professionally, namely the acrimonious end with WB, both meanings could be applied.
There was no secret that Alice, Shep and everyone involved wanted a kiss-off song to WB on the album. It ended up being "Enough's Enough" in a veiled way. Former Lee Warmer was orginally titled "Formerly Warner" and I think was originally written as the kiss-off song but grew into the classic that it became.
If I were to fathom a guess, and keeping the concept of Dada in mind, it could have been a deliberate combination of a lot of things--a complete mix-up--which dealt with people or things both mentally or physically, that goad you into doing something that you may not want to do.
What I would like to know was this given any type of studio produced demo and was it ever considered for the album or were it's elements taken and blended into other songs or if it grew into another song--say like Formerly Warner became Formerly Warmer?
-
A_MichaelUK
- Dada God
- Posts: 5383
- Joined: Thu Nov 16, 2006 12:35 pm
Re: Dada-promos??
From pitkin88:
"If the song is sub par I would still be interested to hear the lyrics to see if it was something that might have fit in with the album."
From what I remember, there were hardly any - just a few lines repeated over and over in search of a melody. It isn't even complete song. Of course that doesn't necessarily mean anything because the version I heard may not have been the only recording of it.
"If the song is sub par I would still be interested to hear the lyrics to see if it was something that might have fit in with the album."
From what I remember, there were hardly any - just a few lines repeated over and over in search of a melody. It isn't even complete song. Of course that doesn't necessarily mean anything because the version I heard may not have been the only recording of it.
-
A_MichaelUK
- Dada God
- Posts: 5383
- Joined: Thu Nov 16, 2006 12:35 pm
Re: Dada-promos??
From mr.barlow:
"If I were to fathom a guess, and keeping the concept of Dada in mind, it could have been a deliberate combination of a lot of things--a complete mix-up--which dealt with people or things both mentally or physically, that goad you into doing something that you may not want to do."
I think it was more the fact that Alice has always enjoyed creative thinking especially in something like advertising (he once claimed he could have easily ended up in advertising rather than music) and especially the skill involved in manipulating the public to buy a certain product (this should sound familiar).
>or were it's elements taken and blended into other songs or if it grew into another song--say like Formerly Warner became Formerly Warmer?
There was nothing familiar about it from what I remember.
"If I were to fathom a guess, and keeping the concept of Dada in mind, it could have been a deliberate combination of a lot of things--a complete mix-up--which dealt with people or things both mentally or physically, that goad you into doing something that you may not want to do."
I think it was more the fact that Alice has always enjoyed creative thinking especially in something like advertising (he once claimed he could have easily ended up in advertising rather than music) and especially the skill involved in manipulating the public to buy a certain product (this should sound familiar).
>or were it's elements taken and blended into other songs or if it grew into another song--say like Formerly Warner became Formerly Warmer?
There was nothing familiar about it from what I remember.
-
mr.barlow
Re: Dada-promos??
that's interesting as I always found one of the themes to Dada to be that of manipulation.
-
mr.barlow
Re: Dada-promos??
Alice/Sonny manipulated into a state of confusion by various events and people.
Re: Dada-promos??
I think I have a White Label for FTF, but its Japanese so may not count.A_MichaelUK wrote:From Toronto Bob:
"Maybe even earlier - I have promos for FTI"
I am almost certain there was one for "Flush The Fasion" and I don't think I've ever seen one for any Alice Cooper album after that.
-
A_MichaelUK
- Dada God
- Posts: 5383
- Joined: Thu Nov 16, 2006 12:35 pm
Re: Dada-promos??
From Si:
"I think I have a White Label for FTF, but its Japanese so may not count."
That might be what I was thinking of.
"I think I have a White Label for FTF, but its Japanese so may not count."
That might be what I was thinking of.
Re: Dada-promos??
I tend to think this is probably the closest album to his real life that we will ever get.mr.barlow wrote:Alice/Sonny manipulated into a state of confusion by various events and people.
My understanding correct me if im wrong is
1 at this point he and sheryl were separated
2. heavily into snorting or smoking crack cocain
3. Back to drinking
He claims to not remeber much which i think hes just trying to forget those times. Cant blame him
This album just seems like a huge confession and whats going on in his life at this time. I read the lyrics to pass the gun around and i have to believe its all about him. He wanted to be dead. He was really in bad shape he had no money his eyes were bleeding. I cant believe thats not him in bed with someone and just dont remeber it or doesnt want to. We know S&S was about a couple sisters he and dick met
Formerly warner brothers. And the other songs on are are just building charactor around his insaine life at this point
-
A_MichaelUK
- Dada God
- Posts: 5383
- Joined: Thu Nov 16, 2006 12:35 pm
Re: Dada-promos??
From Keith1980:
"My understanding correct me if im wrong is
1 at this point he and sheryl were separated"
No.
>2. heavily into snorting or smoking crack cocain
No.
>3. Back to drinking
Yes.
"My understanding correct me if im wrong is
1 at this point he and sheryl were separated"
No.
>2. heavily into snorting or smoking crack cocain
No.
>3. Back to drinking
Yes.
Re: Dada-promos??
Well then im all confused lolA_MichaelUK wrote:From Keith1980:
"My understanding correct me if im wrong is
1 at this point he and sheryl were separated"
No.
>2. heavily into snorting or smoking crack cocain
No.
>3. Back to drinking
Yes.
-
mr.barlow
Re: Dada-promos??
The recording of Dada commenced after Alice had his near death experience from cocaine. He was not using cocaine during the writing and recording of Dada. He was still recovering from his ordeal, and it would be safe to say that any drug use would have killed him as he was in poor health. Alice was deeply depressed and in a bad state in all aspects of his life and career. Warner Bros had cut him off during or right after the recording of Zipper Catches Skin and for all intents and purposes were finished with Alice for good.
Warner Bros never expected the album to be made, but they were contractually required to provide a budget for the recording of what would be the final album to fulfill his contract. They thought Shep and Alice would simply take the money. They didn't care if they got the album and did not expect to get an album (for various reasons).
Shep felt that work was the best thing for Alice and brought in Wagner to get Alice to do the album. Shep used Wagner to this this several times before and Alice really liked and trusted Dick. Also, Shep paid Alice out of his own pocket a tidy sum just to go to Toronto to do the album. Wagner mentions this all in his book.
By all accounts Alice was in rough shape. He was drinking heavily but was not using any drugs. I think those around him were happy just to have the old drinking Alice back, rather than the insane fiend he became with his cocaine use. Alice himself is quoted as calling himself "insane" during those couple of years. You can see the change by watching anything from the 1981 tour---and it got worse from there.
With Dada, Alice was surrounded by his most trusted collaborators and friends, Shep, Ezrin and Wagner, and there was no pressure for a hit song or hit album. The album was made to keep Alice working and trying to get him back in shape.
Believe it or not the comeback talk was already taking place around this time. I think Shep was already looking for a new label at this time and putting togther the foundation and plans for a comeback.
The thing is that after Dada, Alice never really stopped working. It seemed as if there was a big gap between Dada and Constrictor but Alice was staying busy, doing guest appearances and trying to regain some sort of profile. He was slowly coming back to life--this started with the recording of Dada.
At any rate, Wagner has said without going into any details that Alice confided in him and really opened up about a lot of things. It's my opinion that ALL of this worked it's way into the songs. It's my opinion that the main theme of the album is Alice coming to terms with how his breakdown/confusion came from the manipulation he was subjected to by people who simply set out to use him for their own gain. "Pass The Gun Around" is about Alice. It was the most personal song that he ever recorded and it was chosen to close the album for a reason. It closed the book on that chapter of Alice's life and career.
In regards to Scarlet & Sheba, the song was inspired by two sisters that Alice and Dick met, but Wagner made very clear that Alice never cheated on Sheryl with them, or anyone----ever. As far as Alice and Sheryl's seperation in concerned, it had nothing to do with cheating or adultery, but rather to get Alice to kick the bottle for good. The seperation did not last too long and Alice got clean for good. Most say out of his love for Sheryl and his total fear of losing her. Alice has always and still worships Sheryl.
Wagner has stated that Dada was his favorite album and the one he was most proud of. That's saying quite a bit. Alice's lyrics on that album are the best of his career and I would gather are something that he is very proud of.
I'm hoping as time passes Alice chooses to open up about the album. I can understand if he chooses not to as it is a very personal album written at the lowest point in his life and career and a lot of those memories must be just awful to revisit.
I think he'd rather talk about Trash--and to be honest--I don't blame him one bit.
Warner Bros never expected the album to be made, but they were contractually required to provide a budget for the recording of what would be the final album to fulfill his contract. They thought Shep and Alice would simply take the money. They didn't care if they got the album and did not expect to get an album (for various reasons).
Shep felt that work was the best thing for Alice and brought in Wagner to get Alice to do the album. Shep used Wagner to this this several times before and Alice really liked and trusted Dick. Also, Shep paid Alice out of his own pocket a tidy sum just to go to Toronto to do the album. Wagner mentions this all in his book.
By all accounts Alice was in rough shape. He was drinking heavily but was not using any drugs. I think those around him were happy just to have the old drinking Alice back, rather than the insane fiend he became with his cocaine use. Alice himself is quoted as calling himself "insane" during those couple of years. You can see the change by watching anything from the 1981 tour---and it got worse from there.
With Dada, Alice was surrounded by his most trusted collaborators and friends, Shep, Ezrin and Wagner, and there was no pressure for a hit song or hit album. The album was made to keep Alice working and trying to get him back in shape.
Believe it or not the comeback talk was already taking place around this time. I think Shep was already looking for a new label at this time and putting togther the foundation and plans for a comeback.
The thing is that after Dada, Alice never really stopped working. It seemed as if there was a big gap between Dada and Constrictor but Alice was staying busy, doing guest appearances and trying to regain some sort of profile. He was slowly coming back to life--this started with the recording of Dada.
At any rate, Wagner has said without going into any details that Alice confided in him and really opened up about a lot of things. It's my opinion that ALL of this worked it's way into the songs. It's my opinion that the main theme of the album is Alice coming to terms with how his breakdown/confusion came from the manipulation he was subjected to by people who simply set out to use him for their own gain. "Pass The Gun Around" is about Alice. It was the most personal song that he ever recorded and it was chosen to close the album for a reason. It closed the book on that chapter of Alice's life and career.
In regards to Scarlet & Sheba, the song was inspired by two sisters that Alice and Dick met, but Wagner made very clear that Alice never cheated on Sheryl with them, or anyone----ever. As far as Alice and Sheryl's seperation in concerned, it had nothing to do with cheating or adultery, but rather to get Alice to kick the bottle for good. The seperation did not last too long and Alice got clean for good. Most say out of his love for Sheryl and his total fear of losing her. Alice has always and still worships Sheryl.
Wagner has stated that Dada was his favorite album and the one he was most proud of. That's saying quite a bit. Alice's lyrics on that album are the best of his career and I would gather are something that he is very proud of.
I'm hoping as time passes Alice chooses to open up about the album. I can understand if he chooses not to as it is a very personal album written at the lowest point in his life and career and a lot of those memories must be just awful to revisit.
I think he'd rather talk about Trash--and to be honest--I don't blame him one bit.
-
A_MichaelUK
- Dada God
- Posts: 5383
- Joined: Thu Nov 16, 2006 12:35 pm
Re: Dada-promos??
From mr.barlow:
"With Dada, Alice was surrounded by his most trusted collaborators and friends, Shep, Ezrin and Wagner, and there was no pressure for a hit song or hit album. The album was made to keep Alice working and trying to get him back in shape."
Yes. This was more or less the same reason why he went to Spain to make "Monster Dog" but more importantly to see if he could do work without any substances.
>Believe it or not the comeback talk was already taking place around this time. I think Shep was already looking for a new label at this time and putting togther the foundation and plans for a comeback.
I think that was well into 1984 (maybe even 1985) but that's broadly correct.
>The thing is that after Dada, Alice never really stopped working. It seemed as if there was a big gap between Dada and Constrictor but Alice was staying busy, doing guest appearances and trying to regain some sort of profile. He was slowly coming back to life--this started with the recording of Dada.
Although he had been writing (separately) with Joe Perry and Andy McCoy, meeting Kane Roberts was the biggest development (I'm not sure of the exact sequence as writing with McCoy may have happened after he met Kane), as Alice now had what was considered the right person to write with.
"With Dada, Alice was surrounded by his most trusted collaborators and friends, Shep, Ezrin and Wagner, and there was no pressure for a hit song or hit album. The album was made to keep Alice working and trying to get him back in shape."
Yes. This was more or less the same reason why he went to Spain to make "Monster Dog" but more importantly to see if he could do work without any substances.
>Believe it or not the comeback talk was already taking place around this time. I think Shep was already looking for a new label at this time and putting togther the foundation and plans for a comeback.
I think that was well into 1984 (maybe even 1985) but that's broadly correct.
>The thing is that after Dada, Alice never really stopped working. It seemed as if there was a big gap between Dada and Constrictor but Alice was staying busy, doing guest appearances and trying to regain some sort of profile. He was slowly coming back to life--this started with the recording of Dada.
Although he had been writing (separately) with Joe Perry and Andy McCoy, meeting Kane Roberts was the biggest development (I'm not sure of the exact sequence as writing with McCoy may have happened after he met Kane), as Alice now had what was considered the right person to write with.
-
killer wolf
- Dada God
- Posts: 777
- Joined: Mon Nov 07, 2005 9:26 am
- Location: DragonTown
Re: Dada-promos??
i'd say that was From The Inside.Keith1980 wrote:I tend to think this is probably the closest album to his real life that we will ever get.mr.barlow wrote:Alice/Sonny manipulated into a state of confusion by various events and people.
Re: Dada-promos??
What doesnt make sense to me is that dick wagner has stated that their was a crack pipe behind a curtain where alice did the vocals and all the band was taking hits.mr.barlow wrote:The recording of Dada commenced after Alice had his near death experience from cocaine. He was not using cocaine during the writing and recording of Dada. He was still recovering from his ordeal, and it would be safe to say that any drug use would have killed him as he was in poor health. Alice was deeply depressed and in a bad state in all aspects of his life and career. Warner Bros had cut him off during or right after the recording of Zipper Catches Skin and for all intents and purposes were finished with Alice for good.
Warner Bros never expected the album to be made, but they were contractually required to provide a budget for the recording of what would be the final album to fulfill his contract. They thought Shep and Alice would simply take the money. They didn't care if they got the album and did not expect to get an album (for various reasons).
Shep felt that work was the best thing for Alice and brought in Wagner to get Alice to do the album. Shep used Wagner to this this several times before and Alice really liked and trusted Dick. Also, Shep paid Alice out of his own pocket a tidy sum just to go to Toronto to do the album. Wagner mentions this all in his book.
By all accounts Alice was in rough shape. He was drinking heavily but was not using any drugs. I think those around him were happy just to have the old drinking Alice back, rather than the insane fiend he became with his cocaine use. Alice himself is quoted as calling himself "insane" during those couple of years. You can see the change by watching anything from the 1981 tour---and it got worse from there.
With Dada, Alice was surrounded by his most trusted collaborators and friends, Shep, Ezrin and Wagner, and there was no pressure for a hit song or hit album. The album was made to keep Alice working and trying to get him back in shape.
Believe it or not the comeback talk was already taking place around this time. I think Shep was already looking for a new label at this time and putting togther the foundation and plans for a comeback.
The thing is that after Dada, Alice never really stopped working. It seemed as if there was a big gap between Dada and Constrictor but Alice was staying busy, doing guest appearances and trying to regain some sort of profile. He was slowly coming back to life--this started with the recording of Dada.
At any rate, Wagner has said without going into any details that Alice confided in him and really opened up about a lot of things. It's my opinion that ALL of this worked it's way into the songs. It's my opinion that the main theme of the album is Alice coming to terms with how his breakdown/confusion came from the manipulation he was subjected to by people who simply set out to use him for their own gain. "Pass The Gun Around" is about Alice. It was the most personal song that he ever recorded and it was chosen to close the album for a reason. It closed the book on that chapter of Alice's life and career.
In regards to Scarlet & Sheba, the song was inspired by two sisters that Alice and Dick met, but Wagner made very clear that Alice never cheated on Sheryl with them, or anyone----ever. As far as Alice and Sheryl's seperation in concerned, it had nothing to do with cheating or adultery, but rather to get Alice to kick the bottle for good. The seperation did not last too long and Alice got clean for good. Most say out of his love for Sheryl and his total fear of losing her. Alice has always and still worships Sheryl.
Wagner has stated that Dada was his favorite album and the one he was most proud of. That's saying quite a bit. Alice's lyrics on that album are the best of his career and I would gather are something that he is very proud of.
I'm hoping as time passes Alice chooses to open up about the album. I can understand if he chooses not to as it is a very personal album written at the lowest point in his life and career and a lot of those memories must be just awful to revisit.
I think he'd rather talk about Trash--and to be honest--I don't blame him one bit.
-
mr.barlow
Re: Dada-promos??
Wagner's quote was in reference to the recording sessions for Zipper Cathes Skin. It was during the recording of this album when Alice nearly died from smoking crack. The making of this album was sheer chaos and it drove Alice into the literal brick wall at full speed and nearly into an early grave.
I believe it was so insane that Wagner had seen enough and left the sessions or was sent home. He could not get through to Alice. No one could. It took a close call with death for Alice to put an end to the cocaine insanity.
Alice's coke habit was only a very brief period in his life (1979-1982) with it reaching fever pitch in 1981-1982. He was able to control it at the beginning but having the addictive personality that he has it finally took over and got the best of him.
He spent a large portion of his career as an out-of-control alcoholic and the fans have no problem with that--some in fact glorify it. Yet when the cocaine abuse was made public -a habit that took up about three years--the fans want to focus on it and want Alice to talk about it. Why is that?
It was made public so that the one can understand the career and history of Alice Cooper and the pitfalls he overcame to get back to the very top. It was apparent to anyone with the sense of vision that there was something very wrong at the time.
At any rate--Dada was the him starting at staring at the very bottom and the start of both his personal recovery and the resurrection of his career.
I believe it was so insane that Wagner had seen enough and left the sessions or was sent home. He could not get through to Alice. No one could. It took a close call with death for Alice to put an end to the cocaine insanity.
Alice's coke habit was only a very brief period in his life (1979-1982) with it reaching fever pitch in 1981-1982. He was able to control it at the beginning but having the addictive personality that he has it finally took over and got the best of him.
He spent a large portion of his career as an out-of-control alcoholic and the fans have no problem with that--some in fact glorify it. Yet when the cocaine abuse was made public -a habit that took up about three years--the fans want to focus on it and want Alice to talk about it. Why is that?
It was made public so that the one can understand the career and history of Alice Cooper and the pitfalls he overcame to get back to the very top. It was apparent to anyone with the sense of vision that there was something very wrong at the time.
At any rate--Dada was the him starting at staring at the very bottom and the start of both his personal recovery and the resurrection of his career.
-
mr.barlow
Re: Dada-promos??
I also would like to offer an opinion on the lyric "Sonny wakes up in the morning there's a stranger in his bed" from "Pass The Gun Around".
I think most people have taken this lyric literally--that there was a person (woman) in bed with Sonny.
I have always felt that the stranger he was referring to was himself. This makes the song so much more poignant. He wakes up in bed not even knowing himself anymore and has had enough.
This fits in with the running theme of the album of confusion and identity crisis.
Alice carried this theme over into the song "Identity Crisis", in a more light-hearted way-- which was written right after Dada.
It was something that Alice was going through in the early 1980s both personally and professionally.
Dada is about a person who has lost touch with who he is, so much so it leads him to the brink of death. It's about a person who was manipulated by others into losing touch with himself and into mental confusion.
It's a brilliant album with so much meaning if you take the time to dig into it, It takes on a whole new level of genius when you understand the events surrounding it and what Alice was going through when it was made.
I think most people have taken this lyric literally--that there was a person (woman) in bed with Sonny.
I have always felt that the stranger he was referring to was himself. This makes the song so much more poignant. He wakes up in bed not even knowing himself anymore and has had enough.
This fits in with the running theme of the album of confusion and identity crisis.
Alice carried this theme over into the song "Identity Crisis", in a more light-hearted way-- which was written right after Dada.
It was something that Alice was going through in the early 1980s both personally and professionally.
Dada is about a person who has lost touch with who he is, so much so it leads him to the brink of death. It's about a person who was manipulated by others into losing touch with himself and into mental confusion.
It's a brilliant album with so much meaning if you take the time to dig into it, It takes on a whole new level of genius when you understand the events surrounding it and what Alice was going through when it was made.
Re: Dada-promos??
I could never find any other explanation then this one..I have always felt that the stranger he was referring to was himself. This makes the song so much more poignant. He wakes up in bed not even knowing himself anymore and has had enough.